Wednesday, October 8, 2008

Meddling Mormons, Scared of Teh Gay

Sutherland is hosting an AAAAHHH Gay People Committing!!! Marriage Law Forum, to justify explain Utah's meddling involvement in what's going on in California. RSVP to attend. I might.

This is one I don't understand. The fear that so many have makes a logical leap that they can never logically explain: how does what another couple do in their private lives effect you and your spouse? How does the notion of marriage equality damage society in any way, shape, or form? How is protecting everyone's rights to life, liberty, and happiness - not just the majority's - in a sound, legal manor damage society? And how is what two people do in their bedroom at all relevant to what goes on in my own life? And how do I benefit if they are denied the rights I can enjoy? See, it just makes no sense to anyone with a world view .01% more positive than Chris Buttars'.

Then there is the libertarian argument, as well, for which California's Courage Campaign has created a humorous "State Inspection" video clip to reach voters (embedded below).

From the Sutherland Press release:

"Presently, 27 states, including Utah, have enacted amendments to protect marriage, while judges in two states have said marriage must be redefined,” said Bill Duncan, director of the Sutherland Institute’s Center for Family and Society. “This is clearly an issue that can’t be avoided. Those who come to this event are certain to gain a greater understanding of why marriage between a husband and wife is so crucial to our future.”
That sounds nice, and has the typical "they're coming for our babies!" ring to it, so common in such efforts. But what I thought was a more reasonable approach was that of the conservative San Diego Union-Tribune:
Proposition 8 would repeal the right of gay and lesbian couples to marry. It stipulates, by a one-sentence amendment to the state constitution, that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. Our guess is that even voters who may have reservations about gay marriage will be reluctant to repeal a right that now exists as a matter of law. To do so would smack of singling out a particular group for discrimination, a move that offends many Californians' sense of fairness.

Supporters of Proposition 8 make two arguments. The first is that, for thousands of years, marriage has been defined as between a man and a woman exclusively. Considering how Californians historically have been wide open to change, this appeal is not likely to carry much force.

The second argument made by supporters is that children should be raised solely by a father and a mother, not by two fathers or two mothers. Yet the debate over child-rearing is entirely beside the point, because Proposition 8 is about marriage only. It would do nothing to prevent gay couples from adopting children or from having children through artificial means. Indeed, all Proposition 8 would do is ensure that the children of gay couples would be raised in households where the parents were unmarried. Would that be a healthier situation for children?

In the past, this page has advocated civil unions for gay couples rather than marriage. But our thinking has changed, along with that of many other Californians. Gay and lesbian couples deserve the same dignity and respect in marriage that heterosexual couples have long enjoyed. We urge a No vote on Proposition 8.
If we're going to get involved in another state's bidness, let's at least be honest about it. There is no threat here, only fear. It's all so Gayle Ruzicka!

Check out the Courage Campaign's "General Auditors" video urging Californian's to vote no on Prop 8.



(h/t MyDD)

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21 comments:

rmwarnick said...

Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (emphasis added):

Section 1. ...No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Even the Sutherland Institute ought to be able to understand what that says!

Jeremy said...

The only argument for Prop 8 that I can come up with relies on a pretty steep slippery slope argument.

Lets say governments allow gay marriage while at the same time adopting more vigorous enforcement of anti-discrimination and anti-hate speech policies. How long will it take for religions to be required to accept and perform marriages they find morally wrong?

Yeah...its a stretch but there are many LDS who are under the impression that stuff like this could happen in the next 30 to 40 years if they don't stop gay marriage in California now.

Just and Holy said...

The issue isn't as much about whether or not gay couples will directly affect your family, it's about how they'll affect your civil liberties. Gays can already marry privately if they'd like, so whatever effect, or non-effect, that has on other families is going to happen no matter what.

The Church hasn't come out against private gay marriage or even public recognition of benefits for them, they've come out against defining marriage as between any two people because of the side effects it will (not could) have on religious liberty (1st amendment). You've probably heard about this list on NPR, but take a look at what's already happening to religious liberty.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486191

That is why the LDS Church and most others are for Prop 8.

Jason The said...

Just,

This is an argument I've heard many times, and every time find it more and more ridiculous.

A church's beliefs and a state's laws are separate (I believe there is already a constitutional amendment addressing that, right?) and should remain that way always. The issue of equality here is related more to state matters such as tax forms, health insurance, and the benefits granted to couples defined as "married" by a state entity. All people deserve those rights, and giving them those rights does not mandate that any church recognize the union themselves. Nor should it. But conversely, it is perverse for any church to attempt to influence state laws to avoid that complication. The church does not have to comply with the state in what they choose to recognize. The state doesn't (or shouldn't) look at any church this way, why would the church see it so? An additional argument to be made here is that there are still religious organizations out there that do not recognize interracial marriages. Where is the LDS church in fighting for the religious liberties of those entities?

The "Oh Noes, What About My Religious Liberty to Oppress My Views on Others" sentiment is ridiculous.

Tonya said...

"Just and Holy"? Wow, talk about humble, huh?

I read your list, and not a single incident mentioned is relevant to what the fight against Prop 8 here in CA is about. And the anti-Mormon feelings are growing here as a result of the church's involvement. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

Just and Holy said...

The:
Agreed. church and state are and should be separate. Also, all people should be able to get tax benefits, etc. The problem I see is that there's a conflict between religious liberty and individual liberty.

Gays want to have individual liberty and religion wants to maintain its liberty. So when government forces religion to recognize the individual liberty of gays (as the NPR examples demonstrate is already happening), then that infringes on religious liberty. For example, a religious organization (BYU) either has to accept gays and let them rent married housing or it has to choose not to provide married housing if it wants to avoid that problem. This restricts religious liberty while trying to protect individual liberty. Forcing a religious organization to let gays adopt, become members, use housing facilities or whatever is like forcing them to let adulterers or whomever they might consider a sinner to participate fully in their programs.

Is that where we want to head? Forcing religion to choose between its doctrine and providing goods, services, or rites for its members?

Tonya:
You're right, I should probably change my name. For the record, it refers to my blog, certainly not me.

I think that list does apply to Prop 8. If California recognizes gay marriage, then those types of cases will inevitably arise there between gays and religion. And if anti-Mormon feelings are growing, then so be it. We're going to attract more and more anti-sentiment as time goes on for taking a stand for what we believe in.

Jason The said...

Just, you write:

Forcing a religious organization to let gays adopt, become members, use housing facilities or whatever is like forcing them to let adulterers or whomever they might consider a sinner to participate fully in their programs.

A church should have no role in state adoption policies, will never be forced to allow membership to any individual (as long as they are willing to own the decision of denial), nor allow participation in programs unless those programs are also sponsored/funded/organized in collusion with state agencies.

So again, I still see no real problem here.

Jeremy said...

Many on the left have an astonishingly quaint faith that government won't ever encroach on first amendment prohibitions against tampering with religion. As an incurable government hater I am more skeptical.

That said, I'm not convinced that gay marriage has anything directly to do with the government encroachment on religion that the prop 9 crowd is so worried about. Gay marriage in and of itself doesn't threaten churches as long as tolerance of homosexuality isn't made legally mandatory. The first amendment religious rights Just and Holy is concerned about are more threatened by hate speech and anti-discrimination laws than they are by gay marriage.

Jeremy said...

Oops I meant Prop 8. Sorry...

Just and Holy said...

The:

I'm just going by what is already happening, assuming NPR knows what it's talking about.

Jeremy:

I don't completely understand all the legal ramifications. I think you're right that it's more about anti-discrimination and hate speech laws, but I also assume that justification for such laws will be greatly magnified if gays are allowed to marry civilly. I could be wrong though.

Misty Fowler said...

The idea that churches are afraid that they might be forced to perform gay marriage within their churches is ludicrous. If that was the problem, they'd be insisting that language be added to protect churches from being forced to acknowledge gay marriage.

The Catholic Church has a rule that only those of good standing in the Church can be married there, or at least that one of the couple has to be, at least. I've never seen any suggestion that the Catholic Church be forced to perform marriage for just anyone coming through their doors. It just doesn't happen. The government doesn't do that. Period.

And Jason, linkage to RSVP? I'll go if you will!

Anonymous said...

I'm a Californian.

What I find frustrating, is that everyone in Utah points the finger at the LDS church. Here in California, it is clear that other churches are just as involved, if not more. The Catholic Church is actually the one that approached the LDS Church about getting involved to support Prop.8.

So while I understand your arguments, please don't just blame the LDS Church.

And regarding churches having to allow same sex marriages - that is a true consequence. In order to recieve tax-exempt status, churches would not be able to discriminate against same-sex marriage. So the Catholic church would either have to pay their taxes, or allow it.

More Informed Anonymous said...

I'm from California too, and I have no idea what Anonymous above is talking about. In sheer number volumes, the Mormons are out in full force on this one. And no church will lose it's tax exempt status for refusing to recognize gay marriages. In fact, it wouldn't even come up, unless at some point a church was also the state government (which I hear in Utah is almost the case). This is the problem we at Courage Campaign are facing here. Those promoting Prop 8 are not determined to keep the debate honest, but rather to bully, misinform, and cajole voters into voting yes. Ironic that religious leaders would stoop to such tactics to achieve political ends. I'm confident the measure will fail in the end though. Whether the LDS church's reputation can be rescued is another matter altogether.

Misty Fowler said...

anonymous....the idea that a church would be *required* to perform any marriage is just stupid. I normally avoid using that word, but in this case I think it fits. If you think that any church would be required to marry two people they don't want to, you're bat-shit crazy. Jewish temples aren't required to marry non-Jews. The Catholic Church gets to pick and choose who they marry, and make them follow rules for it to happen. That's the way it works. And, as I said before, if that were what the churches actually have a problem with, the churches would be pushing for a "don't make us do it" law, and they aren't.

Hmmmm...you're probably one of those people who forward the "Obama is a Muslim Terrorist" emails, aren't you?

Anonymous said...

I realize I'm late coming back here, but Misty, I'm not bat-crazy. Churches WOULD be forced to allow things they don't believe in.

"According to a recent article written by Barbara Bradley Hagerty for NPR, same-sex couples are now challenging religious organizations' view that homosexual marriage is a sin by claiming this violates their right to equal treatment. So far, the religious groups are losing:

- Catholic Charities have pulled out of the adoption business in Massachusetts after the state said that they must place children with same-sex couples.

- Yeshiva University no longer can ban same-sex couples from its married dormitory in New York City.

- A Methodist organization in New Jersey had its tax benefit revoked for not allowing a lesbian couple to rent a pavilion for their civil union ceremony."

That last example shows that churches are starting to be "required" to accept same sex relationships. So you might think I'm an alarmist who forwards shitty messages (however I've never sent a forward in my life), but this is truly starting to happen.

I realize this blog is not going to agree with me, just trying to express where my opinions come from.

THANKS for being so kind, I love being called bat-shit crazy.

craig41 said...

Ok anonymous, if this is a threat of church's being forced to do things they don't believe in, then isn't, well, everything.

If I drink, and my church doesn't allow me to go through their wedding ceremony because of my drinking, then, by your argument, my church has to accept my drinking and let me go through with it, right?

If I'm an atheist, but want to get married at the local religious establishment, with the ceremony performed by the presider over said local religious establishment, then they can't tell me no?

What if I don't believe in wearing pants and my church does? They can’t stop me from getting married under their sanction because I’m against pants, I’ll sue them!!! And of course I’ll win that lawsuit, they know that as private religious organizations they have no right to stand up for their doctrine in the threat of lawsuits.

See this argument you're taking has some holes, like everything that religious already tell people no for. Those of us in Utah know what is expected of us to go through a Mormon wedding, and those of us that know we won't get in, well, we mostly just don't ask.

Now to your examples – Catholics getting out of adoption because gays are allowed to adopt, and shouldn’t be discriminated against (I’m rewording without looking it up, but I’m betting I’m right in doing so) – well, that’s very mature of the Catholic church, way to put their own beliefs above the interest of children. I’m sure that’s what Jesus would have done.

Yeshiva U – if there’s a financial benefit (which would include better living conditions, be it size, proximity, or amenities) to the married dormitory, and there generally is, from what I’ve seen of campus housing, then not allowing same sex couples access would be discriminatory.

The last example depends on the details, if they’re getting government money based on the pavilion being open to the public, then they should be required to allow anyone to rent it.

Overall, none of these issues would be raised if you were looking at interracial marriages, because that would be racist. Why is it ok if they’re discriminatory towards gays? That is bat shit crazy.

Misty Fowler said...

anonymous, those headlines sound horrible, and seem to justify what you're saying. Except that they're headlines, and missing the details. The Catholic Church and the same-sex adoption issue is the perfect example. See, the Church was operating with public funds. And when confronted with having to make it equal, and offer adoption services to same-sex couples, or fund the adoption service 100% with Church funds (and lose that public funding) they chose to stop offering services.

They could have continued offering adoption only to those they wanted to help, but they decided they didn't want to fund it.

I don't know the intimate details on the other stories, nor do I have time to research them. But, I'd lay a bet on the circumstances being similar for your other examples.

Jeremy said...

I think the Craig41 has done an excellent job of illustrating the concern conservatives have over this issue. They aren't worried that churches will no longer be able to exclude people because of behavioral issues. They are worried that homosexuality is to be treated just like race as far as civil rights policy is concerned. That could possibly open religious organizations and foundations to legal charges of discrimination when they exclude gays from various types of services. It is still a steep slippery slope argument to say churches could be forced to accept/perform gay marriages...but I can see why some are concerned. There's nothing "bat shit crazy" about it.

Misty Fowler said...

Jeremy, there really is something "batshit crazy" about that idea. Churches can currently exclude people based on race, if they want. No one makes them include anyone if they don't want to. That isn't going to change because of this law.

Churches are just afraid that 'teh gay might be contagious' and the people working for Prop 8 think that gay people are less than human.

craig41 said...

um, jeremy, you misread my point. i'm saying that if you're worried about equal rights for gays being court enforced in churches, then you also have to worry about court enforced rights of other possibly discriminated against by churches groups. like drinkers, those who swear, nudists, unwed sex havers, and other things that religions typically frown upon.

you also have to worry about a jewish couple filing suit against the mormon church for not letting them get married in the mormon temple.

you write "They are worried that homosexuality is to be treated just like race as far as civil rights policy is concerned. That could possibly open religious organizations and foundations to legal charges of discrimination when they exclude gays from various types of services" but see the thing is civil rights policy should apply to everyone, regardless of race, religious belief, sexual orientation, height, hair color, gender, everything. i remember reading somewhere that all men were created equal, but i can't figure out why some people want to treat certain groups as though they aren't equal.

what is bat shit crazy is saying that you can't let gays get married because they could sue your church in order to make your church marry them. that's like saying religion A can legally force religion B to follow and teach it's beliefs.

does that happen now, um, no, if it did the religion with the best lawyers would be the religion we all practice. of course if you're worried about gays suing your church, then you'd have to add this to your list of worries too.

Jeremy said...

Craig,

I'm sorry if I misread your point. It just seemed like you were saying that there is no legal difference between what someone does and what they are. Discriminating against someone whose behavior is offensive (the swearing nudist unwed-sex-having drinker you mentioned) is quite different than discriminating against someone because of a genetic trait they have. If I'm read what you wrote incorrectly I freely admit to being wrong...but not bat shit crazy.

It is never easy to argue a point you don't really agree with...especially when it is wrong. I agree with both of you that no church is going to be forced to recognize or perform gay marriages. I'm just saying I don't think someone who is worried about this is "bat shit crazy"...they're just wrong.

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